1 00:00:03,830 --> 00:00:02,470 okay here's our interview with ashley 2 00:00:04,789 --> 00:00:03,840 rinsberg 3 00:00:07,349 --> 00:00:04,799 starting with the new york times how 4 00:00:09,430 --> 00:00:07,359 about some background on the paper when 5 00:00:11,110 --> 00:00:09,440 did it start who owned it the 6 00:00:13,270 --> 00:00:11,120 progression of ownership and and who 7 00:00:15,669 --> 00:00:13,280 owns it now 8 00:00:16,710 --> 00:00:15,679 yeah and the new york times um was owned 9 00:00:20,150 --> 00:00:16,720 by a man 10 00:00:23,269 --> 00:00:20,160 who was a newspaper man in the 19th 11 00:00:25,589 --> 00:00:23,279 century sort of mid-1800s and eventually 12 00:00:28,550 --> 00:00:25,599 the paper was sort of on its way to 13 00:00:30,550 --> 00:00:28,560 bankruptcy or in bankruptcy and it was 14 00:00:33,270 --> 00:00:30,560 sort of rescued by a german jewish 15 00:00:35,670 --> 00:00:33,280 immigrant named adolf ox 16 00:00:37,430 --> 00:00:35,680 and otto fox had this vision for a 17 00:00:38,470 --> 00:00:37,440 different kind of newspaper which was a 18 00:00:39,990 --> 00:00:38,480 you know the 19 00:00:41,510 --> 00:00:40,000 newspaper that he was 20 00:00:45,350 --> 00:00:41,520 aiming to be more 21 00:00:46,950 --> 00:00:45,360 a fact-based objective uh quote-unquote 22 00:00:48,470 --> 00:00:46,960 gray which is why the new york times is 23 00:00:51,510 --> 00:00:48,480 now sometimes referred to as the gray 24 00:00:52,549 --> 00:00:51,520 ladies very dry language sober 25 00:00:54,229 --> 00:00:52,559 um 26 00:00:56,709 --> 00:00:54,239 and the ox 27 00:00:59,510 --> 00:00:56,719 eda fox sort of founded this dynasty 28 00:01:01,110 --> 00:00:59,520 that exists to this day for the last 120 29 00:01:03,029 --> 00:01:01,120 years it's been owned by the ox 30 00:01:05,509 --> 00:01:03,039 solsberger family 31 00:01:07,830 --> 00:01:05,519 he had a daughter uh her daughter's 32 00:01:09,670 --> 00:01:07,840 husband took over the role as publisher 33 00:01:12,870 --> 00:01:09,680 which is sort of the guy at the helm of 34 00:01:14,149 --> 00:01:12,880 the newspaper and the company um and 35 00:01:15,270 --> 00:01:14,159 since then it's sort of been passed 36 00:01:17,590 --> 00:01:15,280 along from 37 00:01:20,310 --> 00:01:17,600 the male heir of that family and what a 38 00:01:21,109 --> 00:01:20,320 form either through marriage or through 39 00:01:23,429 --> 00:01:21,119 other 40 00:01:25,350 --> 00:01:23,439 means of uh passing it down it's really 41 00:01:26,469 --> 00:01:25,360 kind of primogeniture 42 00:01:28,149 --> 00:01:26,479 and 43 00:01:30,950 --> 00:01:28,159 you know over the years it's developed 44 00:01:31,910 --> 00:01:30,960 this incredible reputation an amazing 45 00:01:35,030 --> 00:01:31,920 brand 46 00:01:37,590 --> 00:01:35,040 and really unparalleled power in the 47 00:01:40,310 --> 00:01:37,600 world of media globally i would say 48 00:01:41,990 --> 00:01:40,320 pound for pound given its size you know 49 00:01:45,190 --> 00:01:42,000 it's not a corporate behemoth in the 50 00:01:47,190 --> 00:01:45,200 sense that nbc abc cbs are but its 51 00:01:50,630 --> 00:01:47,200 influence is at least as great and 52 00:01:52,550 --> 00:01:50,640 probably greater than the networks and 53 00:01:55,270 --> 00:01:52,560 and many other outlets around the world 54 00:01:56,870 --> 00:01:55,280 let me ask this historical question um 55 00:01:58,149 --> 00:01:56,880 as far as being you know kind of this 56 00:01:59,910 --> 00:01:58,159 unbiased 57 00:02:02,789 --> 00:01:59,920 journalistic ethical 58 00:02:04,469 --> 00:02:02,799 ethics uh newspaper was that unique to 59 00:02:07,030 --> 00:02:04,479 the time because everybody kind of 60 00:02:10,150 --> 00:02:07,040 assumes that the heavy slant that we see 61 00:02:11,350 --> 00:02:10,160 today is unique to today but it sounds 62 00:02:13,990 --> 00:02:11,360 to me like you're saying that the new 63 00:02:16,150 --> 00:02:14,000 york times carved out a niche for itself 64 00:02:18,150 --> 00:02:16,160 by not being slanted or not being 65 00:02:20,470 --> 00:02:18,160 tabloid-ish 66 00:02:21,670 --> 00:02:20,480 yeah they very much did and that was set 67 00:02:23,589 --> 00:02:21,680 against the background of yellow 68 00:02:26,229 --> 00:02:23,599 journalism which was you know really 69 00:02:29,270 --> 00:02:26,239 that kind of mock raking sensationalist 70 00:02:31,750 --> 00:02:29,280 journalism which was a the real heyday 71 00:02:34,390 --> 00:02:31,760 of journalism as a business because this 72 00:02:36,229 --> 00:02:34,400 was a time where newspapers were ruled 73 00:02:37,750 --> 00:02:36,239 the roost of media there was there was 74 00:02:40,229 --> 00:02:37,760 no alternative there was no radio 75 00:02:41,190 --> 00:02:40,239 there's certainly no tv um if you wanted 76 00:02:42,470 --> 00:02:41,200 to get 77 00:02:44,869 --> 00:02:42,480 that kind of 78 00:02:47,030 --> 00:02:44,879 information knowledge or really that 79 00:02:48,949 --> 00:02:47,040 what we today call infotainment you know 80 00:02:50,550 --> 00:02:48,959 you pass the time with the newspaper 81 00:02:52,869 --> 00:02:50,560 that was the only way to do it so the 82 00:02:54,869 --> 00:02:52,879 competition was fierce and they were 83 00:02:57,110 --> 00:02:54,879 really doing all these newspapers were 84 00:02:58,710 --> 00:02:57,120 doing their best to stay on top whatever 85 00:03:01,830 --> 00:02:58,720 it took and we're seeing a lot of the 86 00:03:03,750 --> 00:03:01,840 same trends today with clickbait and 87 00:03:07,910 --> 00:03:03,760 trying to grab those eyeballs and page 88 00:03:10,710 --> 00:03:07,920 views and podcast hours or minutes 89 00:03:13,270 --> 00:03:10,720 and the time sort of did initially 90 00:03:15,270 --> 00:03:13,280 take a different slant and that earned 91 00:03:17,750 --> 00:03:15,280 it a lot of credibility 92 00:03:19,589 --> 00:03:17,760 early on but you know i think this is 93 00:03:21,270 --> 00:03:19,599 something we see with dynasties a lot 94 00:03:22,229 --> 00:03:21,280 which is the founder of the dynasty 95 00:03:24,550 --> 00:03:22,239 might be 96 00:03:26,390 --> 00:03:24,560 pursuing a very specific mission and 97 00:03:29,750 --> 00:03:26,400 being faithful to that mission whatever 98 00:03:32,390 --> 00:03:29,760 it is but then the descendants are more 99 00:03:35,190 --> 00:03:32,400 interested in maintaining their wealth 100 00:03:36,949 --> 00:03:35,200 their power their position status and 101 00:03:38,390 --> 00:03:36,959 that gets in the way of the mission and 102 00:03:40,630 --> 00:03:38,400 that's exactly what we've seen with the 103 00:03:42,550 --> 00:03:40,640 new york times where 104 00:03:44,309 --> 00:03:42,560 the family and it's one single family 105 00:03:45,589 --> 00:03:44,319 that owns this massively powerful 106 00:03:49,350 --> 00:03:45,599 institution 107 00:03:51,430 --> 00:03:49,360 has other interests beyond just 108 00:03:54,229 --> 00:03:51,440 gathering the facts and and giving the 109 00:03:57,990 --> 00:03:54,239 public the news 110 00:03:59,589 --> 00:03:58,000 and i i saw one reviewer refer to it as 111 00:04:01,990 --> 00:03:59,599 capitalist guilt 112 00:04:04,390 --> 00:04:02,000 jewish self-hatred and an ambition for 113 00:04:07,350 --> 00:04:04,400 power wealth and status 114 00:04:13,190 --> 00:04:10,710 when would you say that that started 115 00:04:15,990 --> 00:04:13,200 with the paper um you know i think that 116 00:04:18,550 --> 00:04:16,000 was somewhere after 117 00:04:20,069 --> 00:04:18,560 it it was fairly early on in the 118 00:04:22,390 --> 00:04:20,079 unfolding of this dynasty in the 119 00:04:24,790 --> 00:04:22,400 creation of this dynasty so after adolf 120 00:04:26,790 --> 00:04:24,800 ox this german jewish immigrant looking 121 00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:26,800 to sort of fulfill this vision for a new 122 00:04:31,990 --> 00:04:29,680 kind of news after he passed the torch 123 00:04:34,150 --> 00:04:32,000 to the next in line which was his 124 00:04:37,189 --> 00:04:34,160 son-in-law a man named arthur hayes 125 00:04:39,270 --> 00:04:37,199 salzburger you already had something 126 00:04:41,909 --> 00:04:39,280 that was a little bit different from the 127 00:04:44,390 --> 00:04:41,919 initial mission and you also did have 128 00:04:48,390 --> 00:04:44,400 this sort of influence of 129 00:04:50,950 --> 00:04:48,400 a very particular form of um of jewish 130 00:04:53,270 --> 00:04:50,960 philosophy in there which was german 131 00:04:55,430 --> 00:04:53,280 jewish and they sought to really 132 00:04:57,430 --> 00:04:55,440 assimilate as much as possible to not 133 00:05:00,150 --> 00:04:57,440 stand out as jews in america but to 134 00:05:02,710 --> 00:05:00,160 really be considered as americans and 135 00:05:05,189 --> 00:05:02,720 nothing more than americans and that 136 00:05:07,430 --> 00:05:05,199 influenced how they covered stories that 137 00:05:09,749 --> 00:05:07,440 involve jews they really didn't want to 138 00:05:11,189 --> 00:05:09,759 be seen as a jewish newspaper so they 139 00:05:13,029 --> 00:05:11,199 downplayed a lot of that reporting 140 00:05:15,909 --> 00:05:13,039 including of the holocaust 141 00:05:17,350 --> 00:05:15,919 in the late 1930s and early 40s so the 142 00:05:19,590 --> 00:05:17,360 the reference that you had there to 143 00:05:22,150 --> 00:05:19,600 jewish self-hatred has a lot to do with 144 00:05:23,749 --> 00:05:22,160 that strain of jewish thought and 145 00:05:25,830 --> 00:05:23,759 philosophy which is also very 146 00:05:29,110 --> 00:05:25,840 anti-zionist and the new york times has 147 00:05:30,870 --> 00:05:29,120 been very opposed to um a lot of israeli 148 00:05:32,950 --> 00:05:30,880 policies but i think on a whole it's 149 00:05:35,670 --> 00:05:32,960 been sort of antagonistic towards israel 150 00:05:37,670 --> 00:05:35,680 for that reason and then the capitalism 151 00:05:39,909 --> 00:05:37,680 was just sort of this natural outgrowth 152 00:05:41,909 --> 00:05:39,919 of something that is so lucrative i mean 153 00:05:43,749 --> 00:05:41,919 the new york times has i think got a 154 00:05:46,070 --> 00:05:43,759 market capitalization of 10 billion 155 00:05:47,670 --> 00:05:46,080 dollars which is not a huge company by 156 00:05:49,350 --> 00:05:47,680 corporate standards but when you're 157 00:05:52,230 --> 00:05:49,360 talking about a company that is still 158 00:05:54,550 --> 00:05:52,240 controlled by one family that is a lot 159 00:05:57,749 --> 00:05:54,560 of power and quite a lot of money as 160 00:05:59,830 --> 00:05:57,759 well so you know very rare and that's 161 00:06:01,749 --> 00:05:59,840 the capitalism comes from the greed i 162 00:06:03,270 --> 00:06:01,759 think that you know it's not just 163 00:06:05,110 --> 00:06:03,280 capitalism but it's an extreme form of 164 00:06:07,510 --> 00:06:05,120 it where other 165 00:06:11,110 --> 00:06:07,520 needs such as telling the truth gets 166 00:06:12,469 --> 00:06:11,120 subsumed to the profit principle 167 00:06:15,189 --> 00:06:12,479 well i thought maybe where you're going 168 00:06:16,629 --> 00:06:15,199 there was capitalist guilt i mean 169 00:06:17,909 --> 00:06:16,639 you know as i look at what happens in 170 00:06:19,830 --> 00:06:17,919 silicon valley with some of these 171 00:06:21,110 --> 00:06:19,840 companies there and the jeff bezos and 172 00:06:23,110 --> 00:06:21,120 so on and 173 00:06:24,710 --> 00:06:23,120 um where it seems like the wealthier 174 00:06:27,110 --> 00:06:24,720 people become the more they seem to 175 00:06:29,350 --> 00:06:27,120 support socialism you know once they've 176 00:06:30,950 --> 00:06:29,360 already made it then you know suddenly 177 00:06:33,029 --> 00:06:30,960 they're very generous with everybody 178 00:06:34,390 --> 00:06:33,039 else's money um 179 00:06:37,029 --> 00:06:34,400 how much of it is that do you think 180 00:06:39,590 --> 00:06:37,039 going on with this family 181 00:06:42,390 --> 00:06:39,600 you know my my personal take on that 182 00:06:44,230 --> 00:06:42,400 issue is that they're they've really 183 00:06:45,830 --> 00:06:44,240 become deft 184 00:06:48,070 --> 00:06:45,840 at using 185 00:06:51,029 --> 00:06:48,080 notions like socialism and social 186 00:06:52,070 --> 00:06:51,039 justice and equity to cover their own 187 00:06:54,070 --> 00:06:52,080 base 188 00:06:55,990 --> 00:06:54,080 in terms of you know this is this is a 189 00:06:57,749 --> 00:06:56,000 company making a lot of money for a very 190 00:07:00,870 --> 00:06:57,759 small number of people 191 00:07:02,550 --> 00:07:00,880 it has been controlled by this one 192 00:07:04,070 --> 00:07:02,560 family it's 193 00:07:06,230 --> 00:07:04,080 publisher the top person at the 194 00:07:08,070 --> 00:07:06,240 newspaper and the new york times company 195 00:07:09,350 --> 00:07:08,080 which owns the newspaper has been a 196 00:07:11,909 --> 00:07:09,360 white man 197 00:07:13,670 --> 00:07:11,919 for 120 years they've never deviated 198 00:07:14,950 --> 00:07:13,680 from that course so when you when you 199 00:07:16,469 --> 00:07:14,960 kind of pull back the current you're 200 00:07:18,469 --> 00:07:16,479 like well this doesn't really look good 201 00:07:21,110 --> 00:07:18,479 in the context of today's conversation 202 00:07:22,550 --> 00:07:21,120 about all these topics so they say well 203 00:07:25,110 --> 00:07:22,560 you know if we just really take a hard 204 00:07:28,629 --> 00:07:25,120 line on these issues like socialism 205 00:07:30,629 --> 00:07:28,639 capitalism uh equity and racial justice 206 00:07:32,950 --> 00:07:30,639 and all these things then maybe that 207 00:07:35,029 --> 00:07:32,960 just gives us enough of a cover to kind 208 00:07:37,430 --> 00:07:35,039 of keep doing what we're doing in our 209 00:07:39,029 --> 00:07:37,440 little corner and sort of preach 210 00:07:40,870 --> 00:07:39,039 something completely different to the 211 00:07:41,990 --> 00:07:40,880 rest of the world and i think that's 212 00:07:44,230 --> 00:07:42,000 you know sort of what you've put your 213 00:07:45,670 --> 00:07:44,240 finger on with bezos and all the others 214 00:07:47,029 --> 00:07:45,680 in silicon valley it's like they're 215 00:07:48,550 --> 00:07:47,039 raking it in they're not even paying 216 00:07:50,550 --> 00:07:48,560 taxes hardly 217 00:07:52,629 --> 00:07:50,560 and meanwhile they're preaching 218 00:07:54,550 --> 00:07:52,639 all sorts of taxes that affect 219 00:07:56,830 --> 00:07:54,560 mostly middle class more than anybody so 220 00:07:59,990 --> 00:07:56,840 i think it's a parallel sort of 221 00:08:01,749 --> 00:08:00,000 pattern so bottom line to kind of sum it 222 00:08:03,510 --> 00:08:01,759 up how would you describe 223 00:08:05,029 --> 00:08:03,520 the agenda 224 00:08:07,749 --> 00:08:05,039 that developed 225 00:08:10,070 --> 00:08:07,759 at the new york times 226 00:08:11,670 --> 00:08:10,080 um i think it's an agenda that is very 227 00:08:15,350 --> 00:08:11,680 much about 228 00:08:16,869 --> 00:08:15,360 them maintaining their power number one 229 00:08:18,790 --> 00:08:16,879 because when you look at all these 230 00:08:21,589 --> 00:08:18,800 different instances of misreporting that 231 00:08:24,230 --> 00:08:21,599 i've that i explore in the gray lady 232 00:08:27,909 --> 00:08:24,240 winked you know some of them are seem to 233 00:08:30,550 --> 00:08:27,919 be pro-nazi in the in the 1930s some of 234 00:08:33,909 --> 00:08:30,560 them seem to be pro-soviet at the same 235 00:08:35,029 --> 00:08:33,919 time some of them are um you know very 236 00:08:37,589 --> 00:08:35,039 much 237 00:08:39,750 --> 00:08:37,599 pro-authoritarian and what connects some 238 00:08:42,550 --> 00:08:39,760 what the seemingly contradictory 239 00:08:44,389 --> 00:08:42,560 influences is this their own need to 240 00:08:46,389 --> 00:08:44,399 advance their interests and that's what 241 00:08:48,470 --> 00:08:46,399 they've continually done again and again 242 00:08:50,630 --> 00:08:48,480 and i think the deeper pattern there is 243 00:08:52,550 --> 00:08:50,640 really about corporate media because 244 00:08:56,470 --> 00:08:52,560 what's what are we seeing when we have 245 00:08:57,990 --> 00:08:56,480 so much concentration of media power in 246 00:09:00,230 --> 00:08:58,000 so few hands and i think that's a 247 00:09:02,949 --> 00:09:00,240 conversation the world has been having 248 00:09:05,350 --> 00:09:02,959 about the corporate world in general but 249 00:09:07,269 --> 00:09:05,360 we've somehow given journalism an 250 00:09:09,110 --> 00:09:07,279 exemption from that conversation we 251 00:09:11,190 --> 00:09:09,120 don't really talk a lot about it we 252 00:09:13,670 --> 00:09:11,200 can't continue to put journalism on a 253 00:09:15,269 --> 00:09:13,680 pedestal which i think maybe we should 254 00:09:17,350 --> 00:09:15,279 but when journalism itself has been 255 00:09:19,590 --> 00:09:17,360 corrupted to the extent that it has we 256 00:09:21,590 --> 00:09:19,600 have to also start shining a light on 257 00:09:23,190 --> 00:09:21,600 that on that industry in that in that 258 00:09:24,550 --> 00:09:23,200 sector 259 00:09:26,630 --> 00:09:24,560 yeah it's really interesting as you look 260 00:09:28,790 --> 00:09:26,640 at the various stories that you cover 261 00:09:31,030 --> 00:09:28,800 that the new york times got so wrong and 262 00:09:32,790 --> 00:09:31,040 i guess you would argue perhaps 263 00:09:34,790 --> 00:09:32,800 intentionally 264 00:09:37,269 --> 00:09:34,800 got wrong that they don't necessarily 265 00:09:39,110 --> 00:09:37,279 always cut on the left 266 00:09:40,870 --> 00:09:39,120 right like for instance the iraq war 267 00:09:42,630 --> 00:09:40,880 story am i right that that what you're 268 00:09:43,990 --> 00:09:42,640 saying about that and weapons of mass 269 00:09:46,150 --> 00:09:44,000 destruction 270 00:09:47,430 --> 00:09:46,160 tell that story quickly 271 00:09:48,949 --> 00:09:47,440 sure well the you know the new york 272 00:09:52,150 --> 00:09:48,959 times was really 273 00:09:53,910 --> 00:09:52,160 i would say uniquely responsible for 274 00:09:56,150 --> 00:09:53,920 selling the notion to the american 275 00:09:58,230 --> 00:09:56,160 public that saddam hussein and his 276 00:10:00,389 --> 00:09:58,240 regime had weapons of mass destruction 277 00:10:02,310 --> 00:10:00,399 you know in iraq and that was the case 278 00:10:04,470 --> 00:10:02,320 obviously the bush administration was 279 00:10:06,470 --> 00:10:04,480 making to get into the war there that 280 00:10:08,310 --> 00:10:06,480 there were wmds in iraq we had to go 281 00:10:10,630 --> 00:10:08,320 take care of it because these wmds 282 00:10:13,190 --> 00:10:10,640 presented an imminent threat to the us 283 00:10:15,670 --> 00:10:13,200 the new york times went after that story 284 00:10:17,350 --> 00:10:15,680 hard and it was the new york times doing 285 00:10:19,110 --> 00:10:17,360 it now it wasn't a right-wing newspaper 286 00:10:20,550 --> 00:10:19,120 it was a it was what's traditionally 287 00:10:22,870 --> 00:10:20,560 been thought of as a liberal left-wing 288 00:10:24,470 --> 00:10:22,880 newspaper and it was new york times it 289 00:10:27,430 --> 00:10:24,480 was this distinguished 290 00:10:29,590 --> 00:10:27,440 paper uh which gave the story a lot of 291 00:10:31,430 --> 00:10:29,600 credibility beyond the profile i mean 292 00:10:34,069 --> 00:10:31,440 they had they could easily put people on 293 00:10:38,150 --> 00:10:34,079 any sunday morning show which they did 294 00:10:41,269 --> 00:10:38,160 on this reporting and this made waves so 295 00:10:42,790 --> 00:10:41,279 sort of as you're identifying jim it was 296 00:10:44,870 --> 00:10:42,800 leaning toward the right but that was 297 00:10:45,670 --> 00:10:44,880 something that was also a reaction by 298 00:10:50,790 --> 00:10:45,680 the 299 00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:50,800 make sure 300 00:10:55,430 --> 00:10:52,720 that the new york times was not going to 301 00:10:58,949 --> 00:10:55,440 be seen as sort of being limp on this 302 00:11:00,949 --> 00:10:58,959 issue of um terrorism i mean this was in 303 00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:00,959 the days after 9 11 that they were going 304 00:11:04,870 --> 00:11:03,600 to be seen as taking a robust and strong 305 00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:04,880 position 306 00:11:10,150 --> 00:11:07,760 but another big piece of that puzzle was 307 00:11:12,310 --> 00:11:10,160 that he felt it very important that his 308 00:11:14,630 --> 00:11:12,320 name was howl reigns he was sort of new 309 00:11:16,230 --> 00:11:14,640 in the job at the time he really wanted 310 00:11:17,430 --> 00:11:16,240 to make sure that they were going to 311 00:11:20,630 --> 00:11:17,440 maintain what he called their 312 00:11:23,190 --> 00:11:20,640 competitive metabolism meaning get 313 00:11:25,750 --> 00:11:23,200 scoops get the biggest and the best 314 00:11:27,190 --> 00:11:25,760 scoops at any cost and why because 315 00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:27,200 that's what makes you a number one 316 00:11:31,110 --> 00:11:29,279 newspaper that's what sells copies 317 00:11:33,509 --> 00:11:31,120 that's what sells subscriptions that's 318 00:11:35,590 --> 00:11:33,519 what sells advertising and 319 00:11:36,790 --> 00:11:35,600 they took that to the logical conclusion 320 00:11:39,430 --> 00:11:36,800 which was saying 321 00:11:42,069 --> 00:11:39,440 here's the scoop on the biggest story of 322 00:11:43,670 --> 00:11:42,079 the last few years being wmd in iraq 323 00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:43,680 we're going to grab it and put it on our 324 00:11:48,710 --> 00:11:46,240 front page never mind that the sourcing 325 00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:48,720 for that story was terrible that they 326 00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:50,560 were really violating their own 327 00:11:54,629 --> 00:11:53,040 standards when they had a star reporter 328 00:11:56,389 --> 00:11:54,639 named judy miller 329 00:11:58,629 --> 00:11:56,399 who had a source in iraq 330 00:12:01,110 --> 00:11:58,639 saying this is where this is where the 331 00:12:03,190 --> 00:12:01,120 wmds were buried and she couldn't 332 00:12:04,949 --> 00:12:03,200 actually interview this individual she 333 00:12:06,550 --> 00:12:04,959 could only see him at a distance of 100 334 00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:06,560 feet there's a guy dressed in a baseball 335 00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:08,480 cap and a t-shirt pointing at the ground 336 00:12:13,030 --> 00:12:10,480 and that was her source a guy pointing 337 00:12:14,550 --> 00:12:13,040 at the ground and walking away and she 338 00:12:16,470 --> 00:12:14,560 took that as enough of a 339 00:12:18,870 --> 00:12:16,480 of a source to actually run with this 340 00:12:22,310 --> 00:12:18,880 hugely important story and even more 341 00:12:26,230 --> 00:12:22,320 significantly all the layers of editors 342 00:12:28,150 --> 00:12:26,240 and fact checkers and copy editors and 343 00:12:29,670 --> 00:12:28,160 management at the new york times also 344 00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:29,680 considered that to be a good enough 345 00:12:34,550 --> 00:12:31,680 source to run with this story that 346 00:12:36,629 --> 00:12:34,560 actually helped get the us into the war 347 00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:36,639 so what you would say is it was in vogue 348 00:12:42,629 --> 00:12:39,440 at the time to be very tough on 349 00:12:44,470 --> 00:12:42,639 terrorism very pro-america 350 00:12:47,590 --> 00:12:44,480 i mean new york obviously was the 351 00:12:50,790 --> 00:12:47,600 epicenter of 911 352 00:12:52,389 --> 00:12:50,800 very pro-american fervor going on 353 00:12:54,069 --> 00:12:52,399 bush very popular 354 00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:54,079 at that time right 355 00:12:58,470 --> 00:12:56,160 um and so new york times just kind of 356 00:13:01,110 --> 00:12:58,480 jumped on board and this is you would 357 00:13:02,150 --> 00:13:01,120 put this as another example of it 358 00:13:03,990 --> 00:13:02,160 um 359 00:13:05,269 --> 00:13:04,000 taking a position that it thinks will 360 00:13:07,190 --> 00:13:05,279 will 361 00:13:09,269 --> 00:13:07,200 cause it to be more popular and 362 00:13:11,190 --> 00:13:09,279 ultimately earn more money 363 00:13:14,150 --> 00:13:11,200 yeah i mean you you get those kind of 364 00:13:17,509 --> 00:13:14,160 great scoops you get the pulitzer prizes 365 00:13:20,710 --> 00:13:17,519 you get the um the advertisers coming to 366 00:13:21,590 --> 00:13:20,720 you you get more subscribers um i think 367 00:13:23,829 --> 00:13:21,600 that's 368 00:13:25,509 --> 00:13:23,839 more or less what that story was about 369 00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:25,519 and be and you know they were really 370 00:13:29,430 --> 00:13:27,600 making exceptions for judy miller and 371 00:13:32,230 --> 00:13:29,440 this is another facet of the new york 372 00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:32,240 times's misreporting is that they've 373 00:13:37,030 --> 00:13:34,800 time and again had these big star 374 00:13:38,470 --> 00:13:37,040 reporters and those star reporters are 375 00:13:40,870 --> 00:13:38,480 allowed to get away with things that no 376 00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:40,880 other mid-level reporter would ever get 377 00:13:45,110 --> 00:13:42,800 away with because again at the star 378 00:13:47,710 --> 00:13:45,120 reporter that celebrity creates that 379 00:13:50,310 --> 00:13:47,720 aura around them of this really 380 00:13:52,310 --> 00:13:50,320 extraordinary institution that is 381 00:13:54,790 --> 00:13:52,320 unparalleled i mean you you have some a 382 00:13:56,710 --> 00:13:54,800 couple other star reporters and other uh 383 00:13:58,069 --> 00:13:56,720 organizations of course but when you 384 00:13:59,910 --> 00:13:58,079 look through the history of the times 385 00:14:01,509 --> 00:13:59,920 and especially where they've gone really 386 00:14:04,069 --> 00:14:01,519 wrong there's always been a star 387 00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:04,079 reporter a celebrity journalist at the 388 00:14:08,710 --> 00:14:06,320 center of those stories including judy 389 00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:08,720 miller going back to walter durantes 390 00:14:14,949 --> 00:14:11,760 probably the most infamous of all their 391 00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:14,959 reporters today's nicole hannah jones is 392 00:14:18,949 --> 00:14:16,880 an absolute celebrity in the world of 393 00:14:20,069 --> 00:14:18,959 journalism and media and she's gotten 394 00:14:21,910 --> 00:14:20,079 away with things that no other 395 00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:21,920 journalists in probably the industry 396 00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:23,440 would get away with and even someone 397 00:14:26,949 --> 00:14:25,519 like jason blair who is the the new york 398 00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:26,959 times reporter 399 00:14:30,949 --> 00:14:28,880 around the same time as judy miller who 400 00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:30,959 was just printing fake stories he was 401 00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:33,120 just making it up and he was seen as a 402 00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:35,600 rising star in the institution and so 403 00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:36,800 that he was getting away with things 404 00:14:39,350 --> 00:14:38,240 that no other reporter would get away 405 00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:39,360 with at the time so that that's a 406 00:14:43,189 --> 00:14:40,560 recurring pattern you have this 407 00:14:45,269 --> 00:14:43,199 celebrity you have a star they give them 408 00:14:47,829 --> 00:14:45,279 all this sort of you know treat special 409 00:14:50,150 --> 00:14:47,839 treatment and then what results is a 410 00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:50,160 real disaster for not just the new york 411 00:14:53,990 --> 00:14:52,480 times in their reporting or misreporting 412 00:14:56,389 --> 00:14:54,000 but for the american public and the 413 00:14:58,550 --> 00:14:56,399 broader global public who are getting 414 00:15:01,590 --> 00:14:58,560 false information false narratives built 415 00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:01,600 by these uh celebrity journalists 416 00:15:05,670 --> 00:15:02,959 so today 417 00:15:06,949 --> 00:15:05,680 the standard thinking is that the the 418 00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:06,959 new york times has been become a 419 00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:09,680 newspaper of the left 420 00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:12,720 and that that's unlikely to ever change 421 00:15:20,310 --> 00:15:16,560 so how did we go from the newspaper 422 00:15:22,230 --> 00:15:20,320 being supportive of bush's war in iraq 423 00:15:24,230 --> 00:15:22,240 to a paper today where you can't even 424 00:15:27,269 --> 00:15:24,240 imagine it being on the side of a 425 00:15:29,350 --> 00:15:27,279 republican president 426 00:15:33,110 --> 00:15:29,360 um you know i i do think the papers 427 00:15:35,590 --> 00:15:33,120 roots were always sort of in the liberal 428 00:15:37,189 --> 00:15:35,600 camp um that was definitely the case i 429 00:15:39,990 --> 00:15:37,199 think the the bush 430 00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:40,000 the bush stuff was really an exception 431 00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:42,160 but what has happened today is they've 432 00:15:45,749 --> 00:15:44,000 gone from a classically a traditionally 433 00:15:47,829 --> 00:15:45,759 liberal position to something that's 434 00:15:49,269 --> 00:15:47,839 very much more hard left 435 00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:49,279 and i think that's again that's a that's 436 00:15:53,509 --> 00:15:51,600 something that they're responding to 437 00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:53,519 market forces they're looking at their 438 00:15:57,509 --> 00:15:55,440 future readership and they're seeing 439 00:15:59,189 --> 00:15:57,519 that it's becoming you know the younger 440 00:16:01,430 --> 00:15:59,199 readers are becoming more quote-unquote 441 00:16:03,749 --> 00:16:01,440 woke which means hard left or hard 442 00:16:06,710 --> 00:16:03,759 progressive or even 443 00:16:09,030 --> 00:16:06,720 marxist or marxian in a way and they're 444 00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:09,040 sort of following their readership down 445 00:16:12,629 --> 00:16:11,360 what i think is a rabbit hole um that 446 00:16:15,110 --> 00:16:12,639 i'm not sure how they're going to come 447 00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:15,120 back from that so they're taking on 448 00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:17,600 stuff like the 1619 project which by 449 00:16:21,910 --> 00:16:19,680 their own admission is one of the most 450 00:16:24,550 --> 00:16:21,920 important marketing efforts for the 451 00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:24,560 newspaper to reach an audience and to 452 00:16:28,470 --> 00:16:27,360 connect with an audience on the level of 453 00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:28,480 a brand 454 00:16:32,069 --> 00:16:30,800 that is finding its 455 00:16:34,710 --> 00:16:32,079 target market 456 00:16:37,189 --> 00:16:34,720 that the 1619 project has been uniquely 457 00:16:39,110 --> 00:16:37,199 able to do that and 458 00:16:42,389 --> 00:16:39,120 what we've seen with 1619 project as 459 00:16:44,470 --> 00:16:42,399 well is that they've done it at the cost 460 00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:44,480 of journalistic integrity because the 461 00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:46,560 project has been has been so riddled not 462 00:16:50,550 --> 00:16:48,880 just with errors but with misinformation 463 00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:50,560 or disinformation 464 00:16:57,110 --> 00:16:54,320 um that it has really been tainted uh 465 00:16:59,590 --> 00:16:57,120 and again it's for the for an audience 466 00:17:01,829 --> 00:16:59,600 for a market that they've taken this 467 00:17:03,910 --> 00:17:01,839 position at least on a managerial level 468 00:17:05,270 --> 00:17:03,920 i think for the reporters involved 469 00:17:07,189 --> 00:17:05,280 that's probably not the overriding 470 00:17:09,189 --> 00:17:07,199 consideration but for the management 471 00:17:10,870 --> 00:17:09,199 who's allowed this stuff to happen and 472 00:17:14,789 --> 00:17:10,880 who's kind of blessed the project 473 00:17:16,870 --> 00:17:14,799 despite all of its many serious flaws 474 00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:16,880 and issues i think that is what's really 475 00:17:21,110 --> 00:17:18,480 driving is thinking about who is their 476 00:17:22,949 --> 00:17:21,120 market not just today but tomorrow 10 477 00:17:24,549 --> 00:17:22,959 years down the line 478 00:17:26,789 --> 00:17:24,559 and before we get into the details of 479 00:17:28,789 --> 00:17:26,799 the 1619 project which i want to do what 480 00:17:31,110 --> 00:17:28,799 is this market that they're trying to 481 00:17:32,789 --> 00:17:31,120 tap into that you're referring to 482 00:17:34,549 --> 00:17:32,799 i think it's you know younger 483 00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:34,559 millennials as we say today are people 484 00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:36,080 who are even a bit younger than 485 00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:39,200 millennials who are really 486 00:17:44,870 --> 00:17:41,600 sort of taking to the notion of uh woke 487 00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:44,880 ideologies um which is post-modern 488 00:17:49,110 --> 00:17:46,400 thought that has been 489 00:17:53,190 --> 00:17:49,120 injected with this with a social justice 490 00:17:56,630 --> 00:17:53,200 uh mantra and equity and um really 491 00:17:58,310 --> 00:17:56,640 thinking that we need to upend our 492 00:18:00,310 --> 00:17:58,320 traditional assumptions about the world 493 00:18:02,230 --> 00:18:00,320 around us including in this case about 494 00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:02,240 american history which you know we've 495 00:18:06,549 --> 00:18:04,640 all believed and been taught and i think 496 00:18:08,230 --> 00:18:06,559 it has been confirmed by historians to 497 00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:08,240 at least to an extent that america was 498 00:18:13,190 --> 00:18:11,440 founded in a need for liberty to create 499 00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:13,200 freedom from 500 00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:15,280 an oppressive regime the the british 501 00:18:20,310 --> 00:18:17,440 monarchy um 502 00:18:21,909 --> 00:18:20,320 where now the 1619 project has flipped 503 00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:21,919 that say no america was founded in 504 00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:23,760 slavery so that is something that 505 00:18:27,270 --> 00:18:25,760 they're doing across the board to say 506 00:18:30,549 --> 00:18:27,280 our traditional assumptions about the 507 00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:30,559 world were a product of power structures 508 00:18:35,430 --> 00:18:33,840 that not a search for truth or or a need 509 00:18:38,549 --> 00:18:35,440 to do the best that we can do as a 510 00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:38,559 society despite many problems and flaws 511 00:18:42,390 --> 00:18:40,240 but that each 512 00:18:44,310 --> 00:18:42,400 of these assumptions were serving a 513 00:18:48,230 --> 00:18:44,320 power structure that was you know by 514 00:18:49,590 --> 00:18:48,240 woke telling male white patriarchal and 515 00:18:51,909 --> 00:18:49,600 i think that's exactly what the new york 516 00:18:53,510 --> 00:18:51,919 times has embraced and seeing wow we can 517 00:18:56,390 --> 00:18:53,520 really market the hell out of this we 518 00:18:57,909 --> 00:18:56,400 can sell this idea and they're right 519 00:19:00,390 --> 00:18:57,919 they are selling that idea and their 520 00:19:02,789 --> 00:19:00,400 subscription subscriber base is growing 521 00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:02,799 their digital subscription subscription 522 00:19:07,990 --> 00:19:05,280 base is growing because of that and they 523 00:19:10,310 --> 00:19:08,000 know these digital subscribers they're 524 00:19:13,029 --> 00:19:10,320 younger they're under 40 or even a 525 00:19:15,430 --> 00:19:13,039 little bit younger than that they are 526 00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:15,440 really invested in these issues and the 527 00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:18,640 times is serving up the goods 528 00:19:20,950 --> 00:19:19,760 that's interesting i don't think a lot 529 00:19:22,710 --> 00:19:20,960 of listeners would realize that the new 530 00:19:24,789 --> 00:19:22,720 york times is marketing to younger you 531 00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:24,799 would think that it's kind of this aging 532 00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:27,440 old lady gray lady that that's appealing 533 00:19:31,830 --> 00:19:30,000 to the 60 to 80 crowd but they're trying 534 00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:31,840 to stay relevant is what you're saying 535 00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:35,039 and appealing to the younger crowd so so 536 00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:37,120 take us to the beginning based on your 537 00:19:40,789 --> 00:19:38,640 research because obviously you must have 538 00:19:42,630 --> 00:19:40,799 done a lot on 1619 it was one of the 539 00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:42,640 main things you cover in the book 540 00:19:47,029 --> 00:19:45,520 yeah start at the beginning on 1619 541 00:19:48,710 --> 00:19:47,039 is there one person behind this who's 542 00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:48,720 behind this thing 543 00:19:54,230 --> 00:19:51,600 yeah i mean the the um traditional 544 00:19:55,990 --> 00:19:54,240 account of how that emerged the 1619 545 00:19:58,950 --> 00:19:56,000 project was that it was a 546 00:20:01,669 --> 00:19:58,960 an idea brought to the editors 547 00:20:03,430 --> 00:20:01,679 by nicole hannah jones who is a she was 548 00:20:06,149 --> 00:20:03,440 a new reporter for the new york times 549 00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:06,159 magazine which is a sunday magazine 550 00:20:10,470 --> 00:20:07,840 she'd been there quite a long time and 551 00:20:13,110 --> 00:20:10,480 she'd reported on issues concerning race 552 00:20:16,390 --> 00:20:13,120 in america particularly about what she 553 00:20:18,070 --> 00:20:16,400 called segregation in school so she was 554 00:20:20,789 --> 00:20:18,080 pursuing this idea that america's 555 00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:20,799 schools were segregated which you know 556 00:20:25,430 --> 00:20:22,960 by law we know they're not but she's 557 00:20:27,669 --> 00:20:25,440 saying functionally they are segregated 558 00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:27,679 um you know that might be for a variety 559 00:20:31,669 --> 00:20:29,440 of reasons including economic reasons 560 00:20:33,590 --> 00:20:31,679 but that was sort of her beat and she 561 00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:33,600 brought this idea to 562 00:20:37,909 --> 00:20:35,200 her editors at the new york times 563 00:20:40,390 --> 00:20:37,919 magazine what is her race by the way 564 00:20:42,710 --> 00:20:40,400 she's an african-american woman okay um 565 00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:42,720 she she had been a reporter for many 566 00:20:45,270 --> 00:20:43,600 years at 567 00:20:48,149 --> 00:20:45,280 different outlets 568 00:20:51,990 --> 00:20:48,159 and she came to her editors with this 569 00:20:55,830 --> 00:20:52,000 idea to say let's create a project about 570 00:20:57,909 --> 00:20:55,840 america being rooted in slavery and not 571 00:21:00,789 --> 00:20:57,919 in liberty and the reason it's called 572 00:21:03,909 --> 00:21:00,799 the 1619 project was that was the date 573 00:21:07,110 --> 00:21:03,919 roughly 1619 august of 1619 where the 574 00:21:08,149 --> 00:21:07,120 first slaves landed an american call in 575 00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:08,159 america's calling at the american 576 00:21:12,789 --> 00:21:11,200 colonies at the time um so the 577 00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:12,799 central notion there was that america 578 00:21:17,430 --> 00:21:15,600 was not founded in 1776 579 00:21:21,590 --> 00:21:17,440 when it declared independence from 580 00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:21,600 britain it was founded really in 1619 581 00:21:25,669 --> 00:21:23,760 when the first slaves arrived on its 582 00:21:27,950 --> 00:21:25,679 shores and what she's saying is that 583 00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:27,960 america is something closer to a 584 00:21:33,350 --> 00:21:30,080 slaveocracy that's actually a term she 585 00:21:35,909 --> 00:21:33,360 uses than a democracy that and and 586 00:21:38,630 --> 00:21:35,919 what's the upshot of that is looking 587 00:21:40,789 --> 00:21:38,640 around america today we see 588 00:21:42,149 --> 00:21:40,799 all of its major institutions its 589 00:21:43,830 --> 00:21:42,159 economy 590 00:21:47,590 --> 00:21:43,840 its education system its healthcare 591 00:21:51,029 --> 00:21:47,600 system its politics are outgrowths of 592 00:21:53,830 --> 00:21:51,039 the slaveocracy it is all tainted by 593 00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:53,840 slavery and it has nothing to do with 594 00:21:59,909 --> 00:21:56,640 liberty so the struggle is to free 595 00:22:03,669 --> 00:21:59,919 america from the the residue of the 596 00:22:05,909 --> 00:22:03,679 slaveocracy from its slave past and to 597 00:22:08,310 --> 00:22:05,919 create a true liberty and that is 598 00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:08,320 something that when you think about it 599 00:22:13,909 --> 00:22:11,600 is closer to a revolution than to 600 00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:13,919 any kind of reform or just sort of 601 00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:15,440 liberal progress 602 00:22:19,430 --> 00:22:17,600 so that is the that was the genesis of 603 00:22:21,190 --> 00:22:19,440 the 1619 project and when when the new 604 00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:21,200 york times embraced it 605 00:22:26,149 --> 00:22:24,000 they embraced it on a huge level it 606 00:22:29,350 --> 00:22:26,159 wasn't just to say let's run an article 607 00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:29,360 or two they devoted the entire sunday 608 00:22:35,909 --> 00:22:32,320 magazine to this single 609 00:22:37,990 --> 00:22:35,919 issue of the 1619 project which is 610 00:22:39,750 --> 00:22:38,000 as far as i know unprecedented i've 611 00:22:41,830 --> 00:22:39,760 never seen that done by the new york 612 00:22:45,110 --> 00:22:41,840 times but they went even further than 613 00:22:48,549 --> 00:22:45,120 that it became about podcasts television 614 00:22:51,669 --> 00:22:48,559 shows and most alarmingly in my opinion 615 00:22:54,230 --> 00:22:51,679 about creating a education curriculum 616 00:22:57,029 --> 00:22:54,240 based on these ideas so that kids in 617 00:22:58,549 --> 00:22:57,039 america schools around the country would 618 00:23:00,149 --> 00:22:58,559 be educated 619 00:23:02,549 --> 00:23:00,159 according to these notions that america 620 00:23:04,710 --> 00:23:02,559 was rooted in slavery that today when we 621 00:23:07,990 --> 00:23:04,720 look around the world we're seeing 622 00:23:10,149 --> 00:23:08,000 essentially a slave society that has 623 00:23:13,190 --> 00:23:10,159 just kind of put a different paint of 624 00:23:15,029 --> 00:23:13,200 coat on it and um that that's really 625 00:23:18,470 --> 00:23:15,039 where i think the danger lies of the 626 00:23:20,149 --> 00:23:18,480 1619 project and its huge ambitions 627 00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:20,159 and she certainly didn't invent this 628 00:23:24,789 --> 00:23:22,080 concept that concept i think has been 629 00:23:26,230 --> 00:23:24,799 around at universities for quite a while 630 00:23:28,149 --> 00:23:26,240 where you know we all know the whole 631 00:23:30,710 --> 00:23:28,159 three-fifths thing in the constitution 632 00:23:32,390 --> 00:23:30,720 and you know how did you you know it was 633 00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:32,400 all written by white men 634 00:23:36,870 --> 00:23:33,520 and 635 00:23:40,070 --> 00:23:36,880 clearly all men were not created equal 636 00:23:41,669 --> 00:23:40,080 etc so that had been around but she's 637 00:23:43,830 --> 00:23:41,679 the one who really i guess you're saying 638 00:23:46,230 --> 00:23:43,840 led it at the new york times 639 00:23:47,350 --> 00:23:46,240 causing them to come out with this uh 640 00:23:50,070 --> 00:23:47,360 magazine 641 00:23:52,470 --> 00:23:50,080 dedicated to it um i guess was what was 642 00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:52,480 the cover of the magazine 1619 project i 643 00:23:57,909 --> 00:23:56,159 mean where does 1619 project uh 644 00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:57,919 why i guess my question is why is it 645 00:24:01,830 --> 00:23:59,760 called a project 646 00:24:03,430 --> 00:24:01,840 because it really is a it really is a 647 00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:03,440 project it is really something that 648 00:24:07,350 --> 00:24:04,880 they're pursuing 649 00:24:09,510 --> 00:24:07,360 um in a very concerted manner that has 650 00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:09,520 clear goals like any other project it's 651 00:24:13,750 --> 00:24:11,279 something that they're trying to do not 652 00:24:15,510 --> 00:24:13,760 just it's not just a magazine issue 653 00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:15,520 where you know like most journalisms you 654 00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:18,480 report the story explore the issue move 655 00:24:21,990 --> 00:24:20,320 on that's not what this is about this is 656 00:24:24,470 --> 00:24:22,000 about achieving goals which makes it 657 00:24:27,510 --> 00:24:24,480 something that's much more 658 00:24:29,269 --> 00:24:27,520 close to activism and it is a project of 659 00:24:30,710 --> 00:24:29,279 the new york times 660 00:24:33,190 --> 00:24:30,720 is that a project 661 00:24:35,669 --> 00:24:33,200 yeah absolutely it's a project 662 00:24:37,669 --> 00:24:35,679 as we speak today this is an ongoing 663 00:24:41,350 --> 00:24:37,679 project of the new york times 664 00:24:43,590 --> 00:24:41,360 100 yes it's ongoing how many do is it 665 00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:43,600 like a division at this point of the new 666 00:24:47,990 --> 00:24:45,440 york times i mean how many 667 00:24:51,590 --> 00:24:48,000 employees are devoted to the 1619 668 00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:51,600 project full-time at the new york times 669 00:24:55,190 --> 00:24:53,440 um you know that's a great question and 670 00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:55,200 certainly nicole hannah jones is still 671 00:25:01,350 --> 00:24:58,720 on that beat so to speak but it it spans 672 00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:01,360 multiple articles multiple podcast 673 00:25:06,070 --> 00:25:04,240 episodes people creating um at the new 674 00:25:09,269 --> 00:25:06,080 york times people creating 675 00:25:11,669 --> 00:25:09,279 educational curricula so based on it it 676 00:25:14,390 --> 00:25:11,679 includes people creating books um 677 00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:14,400 including a new york times self a new 678 00:25:21,669 --> 00:25:17,520 york times published 1619 project book 679 00:25:23,350 --> 00:25:21,679 um a children's book as well um you know 680 00:25:25,590 --> 00:25:23,360 it's really quite endless and it will 681 00:25:28,470 --> 00:25:25,600 continue to be so um i think nicole 682 00:25:30,390 --> 00:25:28,480 hannah jones has created a um 683 00:25:32,230 --> 00:25:30,400 is in the process of creating a tv show 684 00:25:34,070 --> 00:25:32,240 based on it and it could be with in 685 00:25:36,870 --> 00:25:34,080 conjunction with oprah i have to double 686 00:25:39,190 --> 00:25:36,880 check that so it is really far ranging 687 00:25:41,430 --> 00:25:39,200 far-reaching and you know back to your 688 00:25:43,990 --> 00:25:41,440 your point about what was being taught 689 00:25:46,549 --> 00:25:44,000 in universities um that of course 690 00:25:48,549 --> 00:25:46,559 slavery was part of american history and 691 00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:48,559 a huge part of american history we can't 692 00:25:53,269 --> 00:25:51,120 escape it and nor should we try we 693 00:25:56,230 --> 00:25:53,279 should try to continue to explore it but 694 00:25:58,390 --> 00:25:56,240 when the 1619 project came out i would 695 00:26:01,350 --> 00:25:58,400 say the biggest uproar came from 696 00:26:03,830 --> 00:26:01,360 academia it came from professors of 697 00:26:05,830 --> 00:26:03,840 history on both sides of the aisle but i 698 00:26:08,710 --> 00:26:05,840 would say more on the left than on the 699 00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:08,720 right who were really protesting a lot 700 00:26:12,149 --> 00:26:10,320 of the core claims saying these things 701 00:26:13,990 --> 00:26:12,159 are just false and we're talking about 702 00:26:15,990 --> 00:26:14,000 professors of african american history 703 00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:16,000 professors of history at universities 704 00:26:21,430 --> 00:26:18,880 like yale princeton 705 00:26:24,470 --> 00:26:21,440 who were saying this is just not true we 706 00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:24,480 study this stuff we are the scholars of 707 00:26:29,430 --> 00:26:26,640 slavery and american history on these 708 00:26:31,110 --> 00:26:29,440 topics and what you're claiming is false 709 00:26:32,630 --> 00:26:31,120 you're claiming to tell us yeah yeah 710 00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:32,640 give us a couple of examples of the big 711 00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:35,440 claims that that are demonstrably false 712 00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:37,520 so you know somewhere the word were just 713 00:26:42,950 --> 00:26:40,320 you know grossly false such as abraham 714 00:26:44,549 --> 00:26:42,960 lincoln was a racist in abolitionist 715 00:26:46,230 --> 00:26:44,559 clothing you know 716 00:26:49,110 --> 00:26:46,240 then something that nicole hannah jones 717 00:26:52,310 --> 00:26:49,120 herself claimed in her opening essay to 718 00:26:53,510 --> 00:26:52,320 that magazine issue in the 1619 project 719 00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:53,520 stuff like that 720 00:26:56,070 --> 00:26:54,640 things like 721 00:26:59,430 --> 00:26:56,080 tracing back 722 00:27:01,110 --> 00:26:59,440 uh traffic jams in the american south to 723 00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:01,120 slavery saying that we have the reason 724 00:27:05,669 --> 00:27:03,840 we have traffic in atlanta is because of 725 00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:05,679 slavery the reason that america's 726 00:27:09,909 --> 00:27:07,840 healthcare system is broken is because 727 00:27:12,549 --> 00:27:09,919 of slavery the reason that americans 728 00:27:14,470 --> 00:27:12,559 have a high sugar diet is because of 729 00:27:15,669 --> 00:27:14,480 slavery but the real 730 00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:15,679 core 731 00:27:20,789 --> 00:27:18,640 historical claim that the project makes 732 00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:20,799 or at least one of them is that the 733 00:27:26,389 --> 00:27:24,000 american revolutionary war was fought to 734 00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:26,399 preserve slavery that the reason the 735 00:27:31,590 --> 00:27:29,200 colonies broke away from britain was in 736 00:27:33,269 --> 00:27:31,600 order to keep the institution of slavery 737 00:27:34,950 --> 00:27:33,279 in the colonies and that's where 738 00:27:38,149 --> 00:27:34,960 historians came out and said that is 739 00:27:39,750 --> 00:27:38,159 just false including one a woman named 740 00:27:41,909 --> 00:27:39,760 professor of african american history at 741 00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:41,919 northwestern university named leslie 742 00:27:45,269 --> 00:27:43,120 harris 743 00:27:48,149 --> 00:27:45,279 who had been contacted by the new york 744 00:27:50,310 --> 00:27:48,159 times as a fact checker for the project 745 00:27:53,190 --> 00:27:50,320 they came to her and asked her can we 746 00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:53,200 make this claim legitimately reliably 747 00:27:57,669 --> 00:27:54,960 that the revolutionary war was fought to 748 00:28:01,269 --> 00:27:57,679 preserve slavery she told them in no 749 00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:01,279 uncertain terms no you cannot that is 750 00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:04,159 false it is no basis in any historical 751 00:28:09,190 --> 00:28:06,799 scholarship whatsoever and by her own 752 00:28:11,350 --> 00:28:09,200 telling they made the claim anyways and 753 00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:11,360 that's really it's a claim that's key to 754 00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:13,440 the 1619 project which is that if you're 755 00:28:18,549 --> 00:28:16,399 saying america is rooted in slavery then 756 00:28:20,549 --> 00:28:18,559 you have to say well the revolutionary 757 00:28:22,630 --> 00:28:20,559 war which was fought to separate the 758 00:28:25,750 --> 00:28:22,640 colonies from great britain was fought 759 00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:25,760 to preserve slavery too and that's again 760 00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:27,520 one of these things that is just a 761 00:28:31,909 --> 00:28:29,520 falsehood it's used to create a false 762 00:28:34,149 --> 00:28:31,919 narrative about america and that's the 763 00:28:36,230 --> 00:28:34,159 danger of the project is that is not a 764 00:28:39,350 --> 00:28:36,240 work of journalism it's not a work of 765 00:28:41,430 --> 00:28:39,360 history it is a work of radical 766 00:28:44,310 --> 00:28:41,440 activism that's how i would put it 767 00:28:46,389 --> 00:28:44,320 radical fake propaganda and the type of 768 00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:46,399 thing where if you tell a lie 769 00:28:49,909 --> 00:28:48,720 enough people start to 770 00:28:52,470 --> 00:28:49,919 believe it 771 00:28:54,789 --> 00:28:52,480 and it almost seems as if that is on its 772 00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:54,799 way to being told enough to get people 773 00:28:58,870 --> 00:28:56,480 to start believing it especially when 774 00:29:01,510 --> 00:28:58,880 you have of all entities the new york 775 00:29:03,510 --> 00:29:01,520 times behind it 776 00:29:04,870 --> 00:29:03,520 exactly and you know it's when you're 777 00:29:07,590 --> 00:29:04,880 dealing with the new york times you're 778 00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:07,600 not just dealing with the new york times 779 00:29:11,350 --> 00:29:09,200 you're dealing with all the other 780 00:29:14,149 --> 00:29:11,360 institutions that are tied into it such 781 00:29:16,070 --> 00:29:14,159 as the pulitzer prize the near the 1619 782 00:29:18,310 --> 00:29:16,080 project and nicole hannah jones were 783 00:29:20,870 --> 00:29:18,320 awarded a pulitzer for this false 784 00:29:23,110 --> 00:29:20,880 reporting for this for this activism um 785 00:29:25,110 --> 00:29:23,120 you're dealing with all the other big 786 00:29:28,870 --> 00:29:25,120 media brands that are connected to the 787 00:29:33,029 --> 00:29:28,880 times netflix all the big podcasts this 788 00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:33,039 becomes a sort of multi-platform project 789 00:29:37,430 --> 00:29:35,360 that it has sort of tentacles and is 790 00:29:39,190 --> 00:29:37,440 reaching out into the world and 791 00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:39,200 and sort of like almost like a vine like 792 00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:41,360 a creeper kind of 793 00:29:46,149 --> 00:29:44,320 latching on to any object that it can 794 00:29:47,990 --> 00:29:46,159 and that's exactly what has already 795 00:29:50,710 --> 00:29:48,000 happened people especially younger 796 00:29:53,190 --> 00:29:50,720 people and educators have assumed that 797 00:29:55,350 --> 00:29:53,200 the claims in the project are true and 798 00:29:58,070 --> 00:29:55,360 accurate they say just like you pointed 799 00:29:59,830 --> 00:29:58,080 out that this is the new york times of 800 00:30:03,029 --> 00:29:59,840 course they're printing 801 00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:03,039 ideas and facts and assertions that are 802 00:30:07,110 --> 00:30:05,440 historically valid they've checked on 803 00:30:09,029 --> 00:30:07,120 all this stuff they've came they've come 804 00:30:11,590 --> 00:30:09,039 up with the truth so we should actually 805 00:30:13,190 --> 00:30:11,600 take this as gospel and people do and 806 00:30:14,710 --> 00:30:13,200 they have and that's exactly why it's so 807 00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:14,720 worrying 808 00:30:20,230 --> 00:30:17,200 are we at the scariest time in the new 809 00:30:22,070 --> 00:30:20,240 york times history as far as 810 00:30:23,909 --> 00:30:22,080 not being able to trust what it's 811 00:30:25,510 --> 00:30:23,919 telling 812 00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:25,520 i do think we are really at a turning 813 00:30:28,870 --> 00:30:27,360 point for the new york times and and i 814 00:30:30,710 --> 00:30:28,880 say that because 815 00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:30,720 um you know you've always had this 816 00:30:35,029 --> 00:30:32,960 division at the times between 817 00:30:36,950 --> 00:30:35,039 the owners and the management and just 818 00:30:39,029 --> 00:30:36,960 the sort of rank and file reporters and 819 00:30:40,950 --> 00:30:39,039 i think for the most part the vast 820 00:30:42,789 --> 00:30:40,960 majority of those rank and file editors 821 00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:42,799 reporters photographers they're just 822 00:30:47,669 --> 00:30:45,279 trying to do a good job they're trying 823 00:30:50,149 --> 00:30:47,679 to be good journalists good reporters 824 00:30:52,149 --> 00:30:50,159 and they succeeded most of the time the 825 00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:52,159 management had this whole other set of 826 00:30:56,870 --> 00:30:54,720 interests as we've discussed and 827 00:30:58,950 --> 00:30:56,880 you know that was something that was a 828 00:31:01,350 --> 00:30:58,960 tension between the two sides 829 00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:01,360 today what we're seeing is that the 830 00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:04,880 management and the rank and file they're 831 00:31:09,990 --> 00:31:07,679 sharing this ideology they're in line 832 00:31:12,630 --> 00:31:10,000 they're aligned with one another on 833 00:31:14,950 --> 00:31:12,640 questions of woke on questions of social 834 00:31:17,269 --> 00:31:14,960 justice and how they see the truth and 835 00:31:19,909 --> 00:31:17,279 that's the that's the most alarming part 836 00:31:21,830 --> 00:31:19,919 to me is that they've rejected a 837 00:31:23,750 --> 00:31:21,840 classical liberal notion of the truth 838 00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:23,760 which is that there's an objective truth 839 00:31:27,110 --> 00:31:25,840 out there let's all go find it let's all 840 00:31:28,870 --> 00:31:27,120 do our best yes we're going to make 841 00:31:30,470 --> 00:31:28,880 mistakes they're going to be bad apples 842 00:31:32,710 --> 00:31:30,480 here and there who are going to lie but 843 00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:32,720 we're all trying to get the truth 844 00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:34,320 critical theory 845 00:31:38,149 --> 00:31:35,840 which is very much what's at the heart 846 00:31:40,870 --> 00:31:38,159 of the 1619 project is not saying let's 847 00:31:44,789 --> 00:31:40,880 go find the truth it says the truth is 848 00:31:46,630 --> 00:31:44,799 what we say it is in order to free our 849 00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:46,640 brothers and sisters from oppression and 850 00:31:50,389 --> 00:31:48,559 we decide what oppression is so we 851 00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:50,399 decided what the truth is and when 852 00:31:55,350 --> 00:31:52,559 you're turning the truth into 853 00:31:57,669 --> 00:31:55,360 a so-called social construct something 854 00:31:59,430 --> 00:31:57,679 that is true because we believe it to be 855 00:32:01,190 --> 00:31:59,440 true if we say to be true then you've 856 00:32:03,190 --> 00:32:01,200 done something very dangerous you're 857 00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:03,200 teaching people around you that the 858 00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:05,200 truth can be used as a weapon to achieve 859 00:32:10,149 --> 00:32:08,000 political goals and political ends and 860 00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:10,159 once you do that your enemies are going 861 00:32:14,310 --> 00:32:12,000 to do the same thing too and they may 862 00:32:15,909 --> 00:32:14,320 not be as slick and as deaf and 863 00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:15,919 sophisticated as the new york times they 864 00:32:20,149 --> 00:32:18,720 might be much more rough shot with how 865 00:32:21,909 --> 00:32:20,159 they use the truth as a weapon and i 866 00:32:24,710 --> 00:32:21,919 think that's also something we've seen 867 00:32:27,509 --> 00:32:24,720 as a part of the backlash to critical 868 00:32:29,029 --> 00:32:27,519 theory to something like the 1619 869 00:32:30,149 --> 00:32:29,039 project being promulgated by new york 870 00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:30,159 times 871 00:32:35,830 --> 00:32:32,320 have there been any 872 00:32:37,509 --> 00:32:35,840 correction to date of this assertion 873 00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:37,519 that the 874 00:32:41,029 --> 00:32:40,080 revolution was based upon defending 875 00:32:43,430 --> 00:32:41,039 slavery 876 00:32:45,909 --> 00:32:43,440 no they they have been forced to respond 877 00:32:47,509 --> 00:32:45,919 when they had this slew of really 878 00:32:49,990 --> 00:32:47,519 prestigious professors history 879 00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:50,000 professors coming out to criticizing to 880 00:32:54,070 --> 00:32:52,640 call for corrections they had to respond 881 00:32:55,990 --> 00:32:54,080 and they issued 882 00:32:58,389 --> 00:32:56,000 an editor's note 883 00:33:00,070 --> 00:32:58,399 as part of the project and they really 884 00:33:01,990 --> 00:33:00,080 doubled down and they really defended 885 00:33:04,389 --> 00:33:02,000 these claims they def they defended how 886 00:33:07,190 --> 00:33:04,399 they've interpreted history into their 887 00:33:09,269 --> 00:33:07,200 to suit their own needs um so there has 888 00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:09,279 not been real corrections of these 889 00:33:13,590 --> 00:33:10,480 issues there's been 890 00:33:16,630 --> 00:33:13,600 very much a full steam ahead approach to 891 00:33:18,710 --> 00:33:16,640 the 1619 project they are 892 00:33:22,149 --> 00:33:18,720 very combative especially nicole hannah 893 00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:22,159 jones she does not engage criticism she 894 00:33:25,590 --> 00:33:23,840 flat out rejects it and goes on the 895 00:33:27,190 --> 00:33:25,600 attack and that's something you see with 896 00:33:29,350 --> 00:33:27,200 her when when she's dealing with critics 897 00:33:31,430 --> 00:33:29,360 on twitter it is just attack attack 898 00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:31,440 attack and that's also something that's 899 00:33:35,110 --> 00:33:33,200 very worrying when you consider it this 900 00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:35,120 is a newspaper this is an institution 901 00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:37,440 that should be inviting criticism that 902 00:33:41,750 --> 00:33:39,360 should be open and 903 00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:41,760 eager for these kinds of conversations 904 00:33:46,070 --> 00:33:43,600 that are questioning its premises 905 00:33:48,710 --> 00:33:46,080 questioning how it gathered and got this 906 00:33:50,630 --> 00:33:48,720 information and uh the theory behind it 907 00:33:51,509 --> 00:33:50,640 but it's doing the exact opposite which 908 00:33:54,070 --> 00:33:51,519 is 909 00:33:56,230 --> 00:33:54,080 using it as a political football 910 00:33:57,909 --> 00:33:56,240 describe for us if you could if you can 911 00:33:59,350 --> 00:33:57,919 you know what you see is the culture 912 00:34:02,549 --> 00:33:59,360 there right now the one thing that's 913 00:34:05,190 --> 00:34:02,559 coming to mind for me is this tom cotton 914 00:34:07,990 --> 00:34:05,200 editorial so here is a u.s senator that 915 00:34:10,470 --> 00:34:08,000 writes an opinion piece that's published 916 00:34:13,829 --> 00:34:10,480 i forget what the precise issue was 917 00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:13,839 and and the opinion editor is fired for 918 00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:17,440 publishing a u.s senator's op-ed 919 00:34:21,510 --> 00:34:19,200 yeah that's right so the new york times 920 00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:21,520 during the uh the protests of last 921 00:34:24,869 --> 00:34:23,200 summer protest riots or however you want 922 00:34:27,430 --> 00:34:24,879 to characterize it the new york times 923 00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:27,440 actually reached out to tom cotton 924 00:34:32,710 --> 00:34:29,440 and asked him if he would like to 925 00:34:34,869 --> 00:34:32,720 contribute an op-ed on the issue he 926 00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:34,879 wrote an op-ed saying we need to send in 927 00:34:40,230 --> 00:34:37,760 the military to control the what he saw 928 00:34:41,510 --> 00:34:40,240 as riots he saw violence on the streets 929 00:34:42,629 --> 00:34:41,520 i think a lot of other people saw the 930 00:34:44,869 --> 00:34:42,639 same thing this is just to be clear this 931 00:34:46,829 --> 00:34:44,879 is the george floyd's uh fallout this is 932 00:34:50,389 --> 00:34:46,839 seattle this is portland this is 933 00:34:51,669 --> 00:34:50,399 minneapolis exactly exactly um and he 934 00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:51,679 was calling for 935 00:34:56,710 --> 00:34:55,280 troops to be sent in to quell the unrest 936 00:34:58,710 --> 00:34:56,720 and the the piece had a very 937 00:35:00,230 --> 00:34:58,720 inflammatory headline which was sort of 938 00:35:01,750 --> 00:35:00,240 um like send in the troops or something 939 00:35:03,349 --> 00:35:01,760 which he actually didn't write it was 940 00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:03,359 one of their editors who wrote it that 941 00:35:10,150 --> 00:35:07,680 headline um and there was absolute 942 00:35:12,150 --> 00:35:10,160 uproar among the new york times staff 943 00:35:13,270 --> 00:35:12,160 both the editorial staff and what you 944 00:35:15,670 --> 00:35:13,280 call their business staff the 945 00:35:18,390 --> 00:35:15,680 non-editorial staff there was a 946 00:35:19,910 --> 00:35:18,400 walkout 300 new york times staffers 947 00:35:22,470 --> 00:35:19,920 left the building 948 00:35:23,670 --> 00:35:22,480 and there was also this meme circular 949 00:35:25,990 --> 00:35:23,680 circulating among new york times 950 00:35:29,109 --> 00:35:26,000 staffers saying that the the times 951 00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:29,119 decision to publish that this op-ed had 952 00:35:33,190 --> 00:35:32,240 put black new york times staffers in 953 00:35:35,109 --> 00:35:33,200 danger 954 00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:35,119 um and that was sort of a difficult 955 00:35:38,710 --> 00:35:36,560 assertion to understand because no one 956 00:35:40,470 --> 00:35:38,720 was calling for the military to invade 957 00:35:41,990 --> 00:35:40,480 the new york times offices 958 00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:42,000 on 8th avenue 959 00:35:45,430 --> 00:35:44,000 they were calling for the military tom 960 00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:45,440 cotton it was just one guy i don't think 961 00:35:50,470 --> 00:35:47,520 anyone was you know i don't know how far 962 00:35:51,910 --> 00:35:50,480 that proposal got in washington if it 963 00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:51,920 was just something that was being kicked 964 00:35:58,310 --> 00:35:54,640 around but nevertheless 965 00:35:59,829 --> 00:35:58,320 the outrage was really unprecedented 966 00:36:01,750 --> 00:35:59,839 that was something we'd never seen 967 00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:01,760 before and this is a new this is a 968 00:36:07,829 --> 00:36:04,400 newspaper that has published op-eds by 969 00:36:09,990 --> 00:36:07,839 all manner of dictators authoritarian 970 00:36:12,150 --> 00:36:10,000 figures from around the world 971 00:36:14,950 --> 00:36:12,160 um people you might consider to be 972 00:36:17,910 --> 00:36:14,960 terrorists by by not that much stretch 973 00:36:19,670 --> 00:36:17,920 of imagination and those were all okay 974 00:36:21,750 --> 00:36:19,680 with the new york times staff no one 975 00:36:24,230 --> 00:36:21,760 made so much as a peep about these types 976 00:36:26,710 --> 00:36:24,240 of figures that were you know repressive 977 00:36:29,030 --> 00:36:26,720 figures from from really out there 978 00:36:31,349 --> 00:36:29,040 regimes publishing their opinions in the 979 00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:31,359 new york times but it was a one american 980 00:36:36,390 --> 00:36:34,079 senator publishing these ideas and times 981 00:36:38,470 --> 00:36:36,400 that really stirred it up and i think 982 00:36:42,069 --> 00:36:38,480 that's an indication of that culture 983 00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:42,079 which has become very very ideological 984 00:36:46,390 --> 00:36:44,079 and right around the same time the new 985 00:36:48,230 --> 00:36:46,400 york times saw one of its other editors 986 00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:48,240 a very high profile writer named barry 987 00:36:52,630 --> 00:36:50,320 weiss resigned from the newspaper and 988 00:36:54,550 --> 00:36:52,640 barry weiss is a sort of center 989 00:36:57,750 --> 00:36:54,560 center-left figure 990 00:36:59,990 --> 00:36:57,760 a great reporter but by her own telling 991 00:37:02,069 --> 00:37:00,000 she could not handle 992 00:37:04,870 --> 00:37:02,079 the atmosphere there which was 993 00:37:07,349 --> 00:37:04,880 intimidating harassing her 994 00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:07,359 accusing her of being all sorts of 995 00:37:12,310 --> 00:37:09,280 things that she wasn't because she 996 00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:12,320 wasn't in line with the woke stance that 997 00:37:16,230 --> 00:37:14,320 the rest of the paper had taken and she 998 00:37:18,230 --> 00:37:16,240 had to leave she had to go find a 999 00:37:20,470 --> 00:37:18,240 different different job this is her 1000 00:37:23,589 --> 00:37:20,480 livelihood she resigned and and wrote 1001 00:37:25,430 --> 00:37:23,599 this very um powerful resignation letter 1002 00:37:27,510 --> 00:37:25,440 that you can find on her website 1003 00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:27,520 yeah i mean these i mean it seems based 1004 00:37:31,510 --> 00:37:28,880 on that culture 1005 00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:31,520 no one who's not of the hard left would 1006 00:37:37,270 --> 00:37:34,480 take a job there or frankly perhaps even 1007 00:37:39,030 --> 00:37:37,280 be offered a job there 1008 00:37:40,470 --> 00:37:39,040 yeah i think at this point that's 1009 00:37:41,589 --> 00:37:40,480 probably where we are 1010 00:37:44,069 --> 00:37:41,599 yeah 1011 00:37:46,069 --> 00:37:44,079 tell me what role you think that it has 1012 00:37:47,349 --> 00:37:46,079 played now and what we see with black 1013 00:37:51,670 --> 00:37:47,359 lives matter 1014 00:37:52,710 --> 00:37:51,680 and crt i mean is 1619 project really 1015 00:37:54,470 --> 00:37:52,720 what's 1016 00:37:56,950 --> 00:37:54,480 brought that to the fore and kind of 1017 00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:56,960 created this recipe for what we saw in 1018 00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:58,560 response to george floyd i mean it 1019 00:38:02,310 --> 00:38:00,000 almost seems as if 1020 00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:02,320 it was just uh you know a lot of gas 1021 00:38:05,829 --> 00:38:05,040 waiting for a flame to be lit and that 1022 00:38:08,790 --> 00:38:05,839 was 1023 00:38:11,589 --> 00:38:08,800 the the george floyd incident 1024 00:38:12,950 --> 00:38:11,599 yeah i do think so i think they have um 1025 00:38:14,710 --> 00:38:12,960 that you know 1026 00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:14,720 we all can recognize that what happened 1027 00:38:19,430 --> 00:38:16,720 to george floyd was 1028 00:38:21,430 --> 00:38:19,440 an outrage you know and then 1029 00:38:23,510 --> 00:38:21,440 just an injustice but i think the 1030 00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:23,520 question is then what happens after do 1031 00:38:28,950 --> 00:38:26,880 we as you say pour flame pour oil on the 1032 00:38:31,510 --> 00:38:28,960 flames or are we trying to enter into 1033 00:38:35,190 --> 00:38:31,520 some sort of dialogue about how to 1034 00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:35,200 change the situation without causing a 1035 00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:36,960 revolution in the country which again i 1036 00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:39,440 do think the 1619 project is set out to 1037 00:38:44,069 --> 00:38:42,320 do that and it's done that by embracing 1038 00:38:45,349 --> 00:38:44,079 the methodologies of critical theory 1039 00:38:46,390 --> 00:38:45,359 crit and know what's called critical 1040 00:38:49,270 --> 00:38:46,400 race theory 1041 00:38:53,190 --> 00:38:49,280 so you know i think the times has once 1042 00:38:56,230 --> 00:38:53,200 again used this as an issue as a sort of 1043 00:38:57,910 --> 00:38:56,240 wedge issue that that it can market and 1044 00:39:00,630 --> 00:38:57,920 we're thinking back again to its 1045 00:39:02,870 --> 00:39:00,640 audience who are younger more woke more 1046 00:39:06,550 --> 00:39:02,880 more committed to these ideologies and 1047 00:39:08,390 --> 00:39:06,560 to say let's go full force at this even 1048 00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:08,400 when we return to this notion that its 1049 00:39:14,550 --> 00:39:12,160 publisher is the white male son of a 1050 00:39:16,230 --> 00:39:14,560 white male son of a white male again and 1051 00:39:17,990 --> 00:39:16,240 again and again and you've got to pause 1052 00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:18,000 and say wait a second if they were 1053 00:39:23,109 --> 00:39:20,160 really interested in creating change 1054 00:39:25,829 --> 00:39:23,119 there wouldn't they want to put a 1055 00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:25,839 african-american man or a woman or let's 1056 00:39:29,990 --> 00:39:27,040 just say 1057 00:39:32,790 --> 00:39:30,000 anybody else who besides the 1058 00:39:34,390 --> 00:39:32,800 male heir to the throne at the helm on 1059 00:39:36,150 --> 00:39:34,400 the newspaper that's not the kind of 1060 00:39:39,270 --> 00:39:36,160 decision making that they have chosen to 1061 00:39:41,349 --> 00:39:39,280 do they've chosen to sort of continue to 1062 00:39:43,430 --> 00:39:41,359 use these issues to their own benefit 1063 00:39:45,910 --> 00:39:43,440 and when i look back at all the 1064 00:39:48,710 --> 00:39:45,920 incidents in the gray lady winked from 1065 00:39:51,109 --> 00:39:48,720 walter durrante defending stalin in the 1066 00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:51,119 1930s by claiming there was no genocide 1067 00:39:57,990 --> 00:39:54,160 happening in ukraine with ukraine famine 1068 00:39:59,829 --> 00:39:58,000 up until today's 1619 project yeah 1069 00:40:02,550 --> 00:39:59,839 you again see that this is an 1070 00:40:06,230 --> 00:40:02,560 institution that has to an extent been 1071 00:40:08,069 --> 00:40:06,240 corrupted by its own imperatives for um 1072 00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:08,079 for money power 1073 00:40:12,470 --> 00:40:10,480 influence and prestige and i think 1074 00:40:13,990 --> 00:40:12,480 that's the conversation we really need 1075 00:40:16,309 --> 00:40:14,000 to be having about the media today to 1076 00:40:18,309 --> 00:40:16,319 say let's not throw the baby out with 1077 00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:18,319 the bath water and say 1078 00:40:22,069 --> 00:40:21,040 to be anti-media or anti-press i mean in 1079 00:40:25,349 --> 00:40:22,079 the the 1080 00:40:27,670 --> 00:40:25,359 very uh first page of my book is a quote 1081 00:40:29,829 --> 00:40:27,680 by thomas jefferson saying if i could 1082 00:40:31,510 --> 00:40:29,839 choose between a government without a 1083 00:40:33,430 --> 00:40:31,520 newspaper without newspapers or 1084 00:40:35,670 --> 00:40:33,440 newspapers without government i would 1085 00:40:37,270 --> 00:40:35,680 absolutely choose the latter newspapers 1086 00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:37,280 are more important than a government in 1087 00:40:41,349 --> 00:40:39,280 a in a sense so we we have to keep that 1088 00:40:43,430 --> 00:40:41,359 institution we have to maintain its 1089 00:40:46,150 --> 00:40:43,440 integrity but what's happening right now 1090 00:40:47,589 --> 00:40:46,160 is not that it's something that is much 1091 00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:47,599 more disturbing 1092 00:40:52,150 --> 00:40:49,760 and i think we need a reset 1093 00:40:54,550 --> 00:40:52,160 yeah it's like we need a new new york 1094 00:40:55,510 --> 00:40:54,560 times what it was originally founded 1095 00:40:57,990 --> 00:40:55,520 upon 1096 00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:58,000 uh 150 years ago 1097 00:41:01,910 --> 00:41:00,560 it needs to happen because everything 1098 00:41:03,829 --> 00:41:01,920 has gone 1099 00:41:05,829 --> 00:41:03,839 this direction you're either here you're 1100 00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:05,839 on the left or you're on the right and 1101 00:41:09,829 --> 00:41:07,200 there is no 1102 00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:09,839 middle do you have any optimism that 1103 00:41:15,349 --> 00:41:13,520 that is going to come about anytime soon 1104 00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:15,359 i do actually have quite a lot of 1105 00:41:19,910 --> 00:41:17,280 optimism and the reason is because of 1106 00:41:22,710 --> 00:41:19,920 independent media um and that there's 1107 00:41:24,710 --> 00:41:22,720 sort of a new dynamic which has emerged 1108 00:41:26,790 --> 00:41:24,720 one is that people are going out and 1109 00:41:29,430 --> 00:41:26,800 creating their own forms of media 1110 00:41:32,069 --> 00:41:29,440 whether it be podcasts like this one or 1111 00:41:33,670 --> 00:41:32,079 small independent news websites or 1112 00:41:35,349 --> 00:41:33,680 podcasts where people are doing their 1113 00:41:37,750 --> 00:41:35,359 own investigation and you know i just 1114 00:41:39,190 --> 00:41:37,760 mentioned barry weiss who had 1115 00:41:40,710 --> 00:41:39,200 left the new york times left the most 1116 00:41:43,990 --> 00:41:40,720 prestigious news organization in the 1117 00:41:45,589 --> 00:41:44,000 world and created her own podcast and 1118 00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:45,599 her own sub stack and she's doing 1119 00:41:49,030 --> 00:41:47,440 excellent reporting though she's she's 1120 00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:49,040 questioning these narratives that you 1121 00:41:53,349 --> 00:41:50,880 know one thing that emerged right around 1122 00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:53,359 george floyd was the central park uh 1123 00:41:58,069 --> 00:41:55,359 quote-unquote karen a woman who called 1124 00:41:59,589 --> 00:41:58,079 9-1-1 because there was a black man who 1125 00:42:02,390 --> 00:41:59,599 she said was threatening her and it 1126 00:42:03,910 --> 00:42:02,400 looked by all appearances as if she was 1127 00:42:05,589 --> 00:42:03,920 just using the police to kind of go 1128 00:42:08,790 --> 00:42:05,599 after this guy that she didn't like 1129 00:42:11,190 --> 00:42:08,800 barry weiss and a collaborator of her of 1130 00:42:13,190 --> 00:42:11,200 hers went out and found what was the 1131 00:42:15,430 --> 00:42:13,200 context to this incident what really 1132 00:42:17,109 --> 00:42:15,440 happened so it's 1133 00:42:19,430 --> 00:42:17,119 that kind of thing that gives me a lot 1134 00:42:21,270 --> 00:42:19,440 of hope that a new kind of media is 1135 00:42:23,829 --> 00:42:21,280 emerging and part of that is that 1136 00:42:25,430 --> 00:42:23,839 audiences are changing they're no longer 1137 00:42:27,589 --> 00:42:25,440 the kind of what i call 1138 00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:27,599 these lean back audiences where that 1139 00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:29,520 would sit on the couch listen to walter 1140 00:42:33,109 --> 00:42:31,359 cronkite and be like okay that's true 1141 00:42:35,910 --> 00:42:33,119 okay that's true okay that's true 1142 00:42:38,950 --> 00:42:35,920 they're now leaning forward onto their 1143 00:42:41,349 --> 00:42:38,960 own devices and saying let me search let 1144 00:42:43,589 --> 00:42:41,359 me go out and figure it out and try to 1145 00:42:45,829 --> 00:42:43,599 understand for myself whether this is 1146 00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:45,839 true whether this could be true who who 1147 00:42:49,109 --> 00:42:47,280 are the sources where is this stuff 1148 00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:49,119 coming from they're questioning the 1149 00:42:52,069 --> 00:42:50,640 narrative and they're going out and 1150 00:42:53,589 --> 00:42:52,079 searching and trying to find the answers 1151 00:42:55,190 --> 00:42:53,599 for themselves and i think that's an 1152 00:42:57,190 --> 00:42:55,200 incredibly healthy 1153 00:42:58,790 --> 00:42:57,200 new trend that we're seeing i think it's 1154 00:42:59,589 --> 00:42:58,800 only going to grow 1155 00:43:02,630 --> 00:42:59,599 yes 1156 00:43:04,870 --> 00:43:02,640 that trend is good but the trend then of 1157 00:43:07,430 --> 00:43:04,880 being uh censored 1158 00:43:09,030 --> 00:43:07,440 by some of the big social media outlets 1159 00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:09,040 which is how we get these shows out 1160 00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:10,240 there 1161 00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:12,240 is on the other side of that we had an 1162 00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:14,800 episode taken down by youtube where i 1163 00:43:18,710 --> 00:43:17,520 had a university of wisconsin professor 1164 00:43:22,069 --> 00:43:18,720 md 1165 00:43:24,069 --> 00:43:22,079 advisor to many congressional committees 1166 00:43:26,870 --> 00:43:24,079 talking about the vaccine 1167 00:43:29,030 --> 00:43:26,880 and he simply warned that if you've 1168 00:43:30,630 --> 00:43:29,040 already had covet and you've got now 1169 00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:30,640 have the antibodies 1170 00:43:34,870 --> 00:43:32,880 that there appears to be some serious 1171 00:43:37,589 --> 00:43:34,880 side effects to taking the vaccine when 1172 00:43:41,190 --> 00:43:37,599 you've already got the antibodies 1173 00:43:43,589 --> 00:43:41,200 youtube took down that episode because 1174 00:43:45,270 --> 00:43:43,599 it uh goes against what the world health 1175 00:43:46,710 --> 00:43:45,280 organization says 1176 00:43:49,589 --> 00:43:46,720 on the subject 1177 00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:49,599 i mean that is scary stuff 1178 00:43:54,069 --> 00:43:50,400 yeah 1179 00:43:57,109 --> 00:43:54,079 there's that element of social 1180 00:43:59,829 --> 00:43:57,119 engineering social control um that's out 1181 00:44:00,790 --> 00:43:59,839 there and the social media giants 1182 00:44:03,589 --> 00:44:00,800 are 1183 00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:03,599 you know pardon par party party to this 1184 00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:05,200 very damaging 1185 00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:07,760 impulse to try to control what we think 1186 00:44:12,230 --> 00:44:10,160 what we believe what we know 1187 00:44:13,030 --> 00:44:12,240 they should be doing the opposite 1188 00:44:16,230 --> 00:44:13,040 but 1189 00:44:17,990 --> 00:44:16,240 you know i i do to an extent understand 1190 00:44:19,910 --> 00:44:18,000 where where they're coming from because 1191 00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:19,920 they they know how much 1192 00:44:23,829 --> 00:44:22,160 crazy stuff is out there but then when 1193 00:44:27,349 --> 00:44:23,839 it comes to issues like this where you 1194 00:44:29,589 --> 00:44:27,359 have a respected professor or md as 1195 00:44:30,950 --> 00:44:29,599 you're saying on a show that's really 1196 00:44:33,670 --> 00:44:30,960 just trying to bring information 1197 00:44:35,670 --> 00:44:33,680 knowledge to people and ask honest 1198 00:44:37,430 --> 00:44:35,680 questions then they've crossing lines 1199 00:44:39,270 --> 00:44:37,440 and we're seeing that happening more and 1200 00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:39,280 more frequently where 1201 00:44:44,630 --> 00:44:42,480 youtube facebook twitter i mean i know 1202 00:44:45,670 --> 00:44:44,640 on with my book after the book was 1203 00:44:47,589 --> 00:44:45,680 released and it was starting to get a 1204 00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:47,599 lot of attention all of a sudden my 1205 00:44:51,349 --> 00:44:49,200 facebook ad accounts were completely 1206 00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:51,359 shut down banned i was given no 1207 00:44:55,430 --> 00:44:53,920 explanation i was given no recourse 1208 00:44:57,510 --> 00:44:55,440 there's nothing you can do about it you 1209 00:44:59,270 --> 00:44:57,520 just have to accept that that's how it 1210 00:45:00,790 --> 00:44:59,280 is and i think where that really goes 1211 00:45:02,630 --> 00:45:00,800 wrong is that 1212 00:45:05,190 --> 00:45:02,640 you know the the platforms themselves 1213 00:45:06,950 --> 00:45:05,200 make this argument that um you know on 1214 00:45:08,550 --> 00:45:06,960 the one hand we're just platforms we're 1215 00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:08,560 not publishers we're not the publisher 1216 00:45:13,430 --> 00:45:10,640 of the content we're not responsible for 1217 00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:13,440 the content on the other hand they're 1218 00:45:16,150 --> 00:45:14,400 saying 1219 00:45:18,309 --> 00:45:16,160 well we're a private company we can do 1220 00:45:20,710 --> 00:45:18,319 whatever we want but the fact of the 1221 00:45:23,190 --> 00:45:20,720 matter is that they're more cl more 1222 00:45:24,790 --> 00:45:23,200 resembling utilities like electric 1223 00:45:26,870 --> 00:45:24,800 companies because you can't operate 1224 00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:26,880 without them you can't survive today in 1225 00:45:30,309 --> 00:45:28,800 the world without the electric company 1226 00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:30,319 just like today an electric company 1227 00:45:33,990 --> 00:45:31,680 can't be like well i don't like your 1228 00:45:35,750 --> 00:45:34,000 ideas mr whoever you are i'm going to 1229 00:45:37,910 --> 00:45:35,760 turn off your electricity 1230 00:45:39,109 --> 00:45:37,920 we don't accept that as a legitimate 1231 00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:39,119 pathway and i think the same should 1232 00:45:43,109 --> 00:45:41,040 probably apply with the social media 1233 00:45:45,430 --> 00:45:43,119 companies that are functioning as 1234 00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:45,440 utilities of information the pipeline 1235 00:45:49,990 --> 00:45:47,440 instead of being electricity or water or 1236 00:45:51,990 --> 00:45:50,000 gas is information and we depend on them 1237 00:45:54,470 --> 00:45:52,000 and i think that's something we need as 1238 00:45:56,630 --> 00:45:54,480 a society to address yeah i think that's 1239 00:45:58,309 --> 00:45:56,640 a great point yeah i i'm kind of just 1240 00:46:00,950 --> 00:45:58,319 assuming that the culture that you 1241 00:46:03,829 --> 00:46:00,960 described at the new york times today is 1242 00:46:07,589 --> 00:46:03,839 probably very similar to the culture at 1243 00:46:09,589 --> 00:46:07,599 youtube and facebook and twitter 1244 00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:09,599 yeah i would say so at this point i 1245 00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:11,200 think that that's another thing we need 1246 00:46:15,030 --> 00:46:12,960 to be concerned about which is 1247 00:46:17,270 --> 00:46:15,040 uh groupthink you know the groupthink 1248 00:46:18,150 --> 00:46:17,280 was that term that emerged after 1249 00:46:22,790 --> 00:46:18,160 the 1250 00:46:24,870 --> 00:46:22,800 destruction found in iraq and we all had 1251 00:46:26,630 --> 00:46:24,880 to ask how did the media all get this 1252 00:46:29,430 --> 00:46:26,640 story so wrong it's such a big story and 1253 00:46:30,790 --> 00:46:29,440 there was just one real big prevailing 1254 00:46:32,870 --> 00:46:30,800 narrative about it and it was really 1255 00:46:35,349 --> 00:46:32,880 group think and we see how unhealthy 1256 00:46:37,589 --> 00:46:35,359 that is we see where that leads us and 1257 00:46:39,670 --> 00:46:37,599 that's exactly what's going on this very 1258 00:46:41,270 --> 00:46:39,680 thin layer of 1259 00:46:43,510 --> 00:46:41,280 power brokers 1260 00:46:46,550 --> 00:46:43,520 especially when it comes to the the the 1261 00:46:49,270 --> 00:46:46,560 attention economy that the youtubes the 1262 00:46:51,990 --> 00:46:49,280 facebooks the twitters um 1263 00:46:54,069 --> 00:46:52,000 and the media which are roughly aligned 1264 00:46:56,950 --> 00:46:54,079 with one another on most issues of 1265 00:46:58,550 --> 00:46:56,960 consequence are really creating this 1266 00:47:00,790 --> 00:46:58,560 echo chamber among themselves the 1267 00:47:03,510 --> 00:47:00,800 problem with that is that their their 1268 00:47:05,829 --> 00:47:03,520 ability to control what others get 1269 00:47:07,109 --> 00:47:05,839 access to what other people 1270 00:47:08,470 --> 00:47:07,119 around the country and around the world 1271 00:47:09,349 --> 00:47:08,480 have access to 1272 00:47:11,910 --> 00:47:09,359 is 1273 00:47:15,910 --> 00:47:11,920 almost unlimited you know they are able 1274 00:47:17,670 --> 00:47:15,920 to now take senator rand paul off of uh 1275 00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:17,680 youtube for a week because they didn't 1276 00:47:21,430 --> 00:47:19,440 like what he had to say about cloth 1277 00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:21,440 masks and again there was a lot of 1278 00:47:24,870 --> 00:47:23,520 nuance to his statements about masks he 1279 00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:24,880 wasn't saying 1280 00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:26,720 surgical masks are ineffective he's a 1281 00:47:31,670 --> 00:47:29,760 doctor he's saying cloth masks and that 1282 00:47:33,750 --> 00:47:31,680 was enough for him to be just 1283 00:47:35,829 --> 00:47:33,760 unilaterally banned from the platform 1284 00:47:37,030 --> 00:47:35,839 for a week which is a question i mean 1285 00:47:39,270 --> 00:47:37,040 they took down the president of the 1286 00:47:41,030 --> 00:47:39,280 united states for christ's sake 1287 00:47:42,309 --> 00:47:41,040 yeah again 1288 00:47:44,790 --> 00:47:42,319 which i'll make that the last thing i 1289 00:47:47,270 --> 00:47:44,800 touch on because i read a reviewer 1290 00:47:48,470 --> 00:47:47,280 critiquing criticizing your book 1291 00:47:50,470 --> 00:47:48,480 for not 1292 00:47:53,109 --> 00:47:50,480 counting as one of the 1293 00:47:55,990 --> 00:47:53,119 new york times big lies the russia 1294 00:47:58,470 --> 00:47:56,000 uh the whole russia collusion 1295 00:48:00,950 --> 00:47:58,480 um assertion regarding trump which 1296 00:48:02,950 --> 00:48:00,960 ultimately can pretty safely say was 1297 00:48:06,470 --> 00:48:02,960 totally proven to be false yet was 1298 00:48:09,349 --> 00:48:06,480 reported daily by the new york times 1299 00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:09,359 yeah i you know i do think that was um 1300 00:48:13,030 --> 00:48:11,200 that was very much the case and i did 1301 00:48:14,309 --> 00:48:13,040 some reporting on that after the launch 1302 00:48:17,109 --> 00:48:14,319 of the book which had to do with the 1303 00:48:20,069 --> 00:48:17,119 russian bounties the this storyline that 1304 00:48:23,430 --> 00:48:20,079 russia was paying terror organizations 1305 00:48:25,510 --> 00:48:23,440 in afghanistan to kill american soldiers 1306 00:48:27,430 --> 00:48:25,520 and the trump administration knew about 1307 00:48:30,630 --> 00:48:27,440 it and did nothing and sort of okay with 1308 00:48:32,790 --> 00:48:30,640 it which had brought into that story all 1309 00:48:35,349 --> 00:48:32,800 these different sub-narratives that 1310 00:48:36,950 --> 00:48:35,359 there was so-called compromat on trump 1311 00:48:39,190 --> 00:48:36,960 that the russians had had this 1312 00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:39,200 information on him so that he was sort 1313 00:48:42,470 --> 00:48:41,040 of hobbled by them there was this other 1314 00:48:44,790 --> 00:48:42,480 notion that he was sort of doing their 1315 00:48:46,549 --> 00:48:44,800 bidding um and then it just turned out 1316 00:48:48,710 --> 00:48:46,559 to not be true at all that the russians 1317 00:48:50,790 --> 00:48:48,720 were not paying terror organizations in 1318 00:48:52,710 --> 00:48:50,800 afghanistan to kill american soldiers 1319 00:48:55,270 --> 00:48:52,720 that it would had never been true that 1320 00:48:57,109 --> 00:48:55,280 the intelligent assessments were never 1321 00:49:00,069 --> 00:48:57,119 quality assessments they were always 1322 00:49:03,190 --> 00:49:00,079 sort of considered low credibility but 1323 00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:03,200 for a year the new york times went after 1324 00:49:08,710 --> 00:49:06,000 this reporting and this was across 1325 00:49:11,589 --> 00:49:08,720 dozens of articles multiple reporters 1326 00:49:13,030 --> 00:49:11,599 all pulling together for the same idea 1327 00:49:14,150 --> 00:49:13,040 and when it came out that it was not 1328 00:49:16,150 --> 00:49:14,160 true 1329 00:49:18,309 --> 00:49:16,160 they were pretty quiet they weren't 1330 00:49:20,069 --> 00:49:18,319 really going back and forth and doing 1331 00:49:21,990 --> 00:49:20,079 another dozen articles and how they got 1332 00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:22,000 the story wrong or how the intelligence 1333 00:49:25,270 --> 00:49:24,400 community put out this information or 1334 00:49:26,790 --> 00:49:25,280 why 1335 00:49:29,349 --> 00:49:26,800 they would just kept their science and i 1336 00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:29,359 think that's a big problem um you know 1337 00:49:33,990 --> 00:49:31,440 in terms of the the the trump and russia 1338 00:49:36,309 --> 00:49:34,000 collusion story in my book my aim with 1339 00:49:39,109 --> 00:49:36,319 this book was really to present stories 1340 00:49:40,710 --> 00:49:39,119 that actually had and had a 1341 00:49:43,109 --> 00:49:40,720 effect on history that changed the 1342 00:49:45,589 --> 00:49:43,119 course of history in significant ways 1343 00:49:48,470 --> 00:49:45,599 and when i looked at trump um you know 1344 00:49:51,030 --> 00:49:48,480 he in the end was elected president and 1345 00:49:52,870 --> 00:49:51,040 at least for one term was the president 1346 00:49:55,030 --> 00:49:52,880 um whether or not that had something to 1347 00:49:56,790 --> 00:49:55,040 do with this with his 1348 00:49:59,510 --> 00:49:56,800 second uh not winning a second term i 1349 00:50:01,750 --> 00:49:59,520 don't know but i wanted to maintain as 1350 00:50:02,790 --> 00:50:01,760 high a threshold and the standard as 1351 00:50:04,870 --> 00:50:02,800 possible 1352 00:50:06,870 --> 00:50:04,880 for including stories into this book so 1353 00:50:08,630 --> 00:50:06,880 to show that i'm not going after the 1354 00:50:11,430 --> 00:50:08,640 stuff that might just be sort of gray 1355 00:50:12,870 --> 00:50:11,440 area that okay it was yes there was 1356 00:50:15,030 --> 00:50:12,880 collusion yes there was corruption but 1357 00:50:16,230 --> 00:50:15,040 it wasn't that crazy of an effect or on 1358 00:50:17,510 --> 00:50:16,240 the other hand 1359 00:50:19,030 --> 00:50:17,520 yes there was a big effect but it was 1360 00:50:21,109 --> 00:50:19,040 sort of more a mistake i wanted to show 1361 00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:21,119 that these are incidents that were the 1362 00:50:26,390 --> 00:50:23,200 new york times deliberately and 1363 00:50:29,270 --> 00:50:26,400 knowingly intentionally altering history 1364 00:50:31,510 --> 00:50:29,280 in what i call editing our reality and i 1365 00:50:33,190 --> 00:50:31,520 wanted to make sure that i really kept 1366 00:50:35,670 --> 00:50:33,200 that bar as high as i could and to 1367 00:50:39,270 --> 00:50:35,680 challenge myself to present stories that 1368 00:50:41,349 --> 00:50:39,280 were really on that level of malfeasance 1369 00:50:43,510 --> 00:50:41,359 well it was a very ballsy thing to do i 1370 00:50:45,349 --> 00:50:43,520 know that you struggled on the decision 1371 00:50:47,349 --> 00:50:45,359 of whether to do it for a while but but 1372 00:50:49,670 --> 00:50:47,359 congratulations for having the courage 1373 00:50:52,069 --> 00:50:49,680 to do it and and let's hope that the 1374 00:50:55,990 --> 00:50:52,079 the word gets out on it despite what 1375 00:50:57,990 --> 00:50:56,000 social media blocks may be put on it 1376 00:50:59,670 --> 00:50:58,000 thank you so much jim i appreciate that 1377 00:51:01,990 --> 00:50:59,680 thank you again to ashley rinsberg you 1378 00:51:04,630 --> 00:51:02,000 can check out his book the gray lady 1379 00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:04,640 winked you can pick it up anywhere 1380 00:51:08,710 --> 00:51:06,000 but amazon 1381 00:51:11,109 --> 00:51:08,720 it's available on amazon but i prefer 1382 00:51:12,230 --> 00:51:11,119 you guys get it somewhere else as i try 1383 00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:12,240 to do 1384 00:51:16,710 --> 00:51:14,160 that's the gray lady winked 1385 00:51:18,069 --> 00:51:16,720 the book by ashley rinsberg thank you 1386 00:51:19,190 --> 00:51:18,079 also to our producer michael parker 1387 00:51:20,790 --> 00:51:19,200 thank you all for listening we'll be 1388 00:51:26,390 --> 00:51:20,800 back soon with another episode of the 1389 00:51:29,589 --> 00:51:27,829 thank you for listening to the truth 1390 00:51:33,109 --> 00:51:29,599 show with jim breslow 1391 00:51:35,349 --> 00:51:33,119 you can find us at hiddentruthshow.com 1392 00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:35,359 follow us on facebook twitter and 1393 00:51:39,829 --> 00:51:38,160 instagram the hidden truth show 1394 00:51:42,549 --> 00:51:39,839 join us again next week for another 1395 00:51:48,380 --> 00:51:42,559 episode of hidden truth show with jim